Mammies and Niggers: We Ain’t No Joke

22 Responses to “Mammies and Niggers: We Ain’t No Joke”

1. cooper on June 19th, 2008 1:45 am permalink

   That whole thread, the comments and all makes me embarrassed to be white.

   I saw Yobachi’s post earlier in the week, but I had no idea who Dog Chapman was. I guess I figured if I didn’t know who he was no one would, so it really wouldn’t matter. I just read more about him and I guess, unfortunately, there are people who actually do know who he is, and actually watch him.

2. ilyka on June 19th, 2008 3:29 am permalink

   That whole thread, the comments and all makes me embarrassed to be white.

   That makes at least two of us.

   I don’t plan to host such a parade of fools again; letting them comment at all was more than any of them deserved seeing as how they got there through a link in Sarah’s protected Twitter feed. Only herself and her 82 closest, bestest personal friends can read it. God only knows what was said there if they were so free and easy with the stupid at my place.

   First of all, if you haven’t yet, I want you to now stop reading and follow the link to the mammy figurine picture and commentary. Now, notice that there is nothing, absolutely nothing that suggests any sort of horror or condemnation. Nothing.

   I don’t buy it. The center does not hold.

   That’s exactly what my boyfriend said when he read that comment; he doesn’t normally read me or follow the comments that closely, but his bullshit detector went off loud and strong for that one. It’s that “. . . and I expect you to totes BUY this obvious crock, too, and maybe even apologize to ME for hurting MY feelings” level of entitlement that makes me so punchy.

   The “you mean there are people of color on the internet?–NO WAI,” reaction was glaring from the first comment, too. Thank you, Ernesto Von Balls–you prince of Williamsburg, you stone cold fucking idiot, you.

   Think about how Chapman and his supporters are making THE SAME EXACT ARGUMENTS OF INNOCENCE as you are.

   Nooooo, that isn’t possible! I’M A GOOD GIRL, I AM!

   And now Harrietsdaughter is getting searches for “Michelle Obama First [that word that everyone quit using 80 years ago and is sooooo over, but nonetheless still fun to invoke when trying not to drunk dial].”

   Which supports exactly the connection you’re making, exactly the connection Sheezlebub was making, exactly the connection that should be obvious, but apparently isn’t: When you do the same exact things “real” racists do, don’t be surprised when it attracts more racists. And definitely do not be surprised when some of us for some reason don’t care all that much about making the distinction between you Really Good Persons and those so-called Real Racists.

   I did not find this post at all a ramble, I have to say. I found it sanity-inducing.

3. smadin on June 19th, 2008 6:35 am permalink

   I want to be clear here, however; NO ONE is calling anyone a white-sheet wearing, cross-burning white-supremacist. You just fucked up, is all. You were blind, is all. You can get past that if you just stepped back for a minute and actually LISTENED to what people are saying to you and just owned your shit. We all know that you meant no harm. That’s not the point. The point is that the harm was done when you didn’t mean it. That, often, is more hurtful than when the harm was intended. Get it?

   I think this is key (and it’s a mistake I certainly used to make!). I’ve had a blog post or two germinating for a while now on just what’s wrong with us that we can’t distinguish gradations, and assume that “racism” (for example) is a binary thing, 100% or 0%. I suspect that among the relevant factors are the American obsession with individualism (here represented by the idea that racism consists in the individual attitudes of racist individuals), the common use of “racist” as a noun rather than an adjective (though that’s perhaps more symptom than cause) and what I think of as the “shut up I’m not bad” reaction — the reflex to go defensive when one feels criticized.

   Anyway, Kevin, thanks for this post. Yours is one of many blogs that’s gone a long way toward opening my eyes in the past couple years.

4. sly civilian on June 19th, 2008 9:46 am permalink

   “Sassy Best Friend Who Gets Maybe Twelve Lines Total in the Romantic Comedy That’s Out This Week… has a lot more negative bearing on African Americans living today, in the 21st Century, than The Mammy”

   As if those two have nothing to do with each other. Oh, jebus. Why won’t you let them keep just one good ole racial stereotype?

5. Kevin on June 19th, 2008 1:10 pm permalink

   @Cooper: Yeah, folks know who he is. Unfortunately.

   @Ilyka: That thread infuriated me. I couldn’t even post a response there because it would have just been a long string of cussing. Ah, the privilege. It burns! And yeah, that lil’ switcheroo there where all of the sudden you are to blame for not intuitively grasping the “horror and shame” that is implicit in using a mammy figurine to prevent drunk dialing? Classic stupid.

   @smadin: Thanks for that. It means a lot for me to hear that.

   @Sly: Exactly! It boggles the mind how anyone can separate the two, how anyone can’t see that they are interconnected, part of a long historical and cultural trend. But hey, at least now I know where to go if I ever need to find out what I should *really* be concerned about.

6. belledame222 on June 19th, 2008 6:57 pm permalink

   per Dog Chapman:

   “We know his heart.”

   o classic. blech. and I know my gallstone; so the fuck what? no one CARES what’s in his heart: as you say: fucked. up. deal. with it.

7. belledame222 on June 19th, 2008 7:06 pm permalink

   gallstoneS. um, which I don’t know if I actually, I mean I hope I don’t

   /increasingly banal

   anyway.

   Yeah, isn’t it always worse in the attempted backpedaling and retcon and eight kazillion other tricks? Can’t people just own their shit already?
   Do they do this in other circumstances? I mean, like, what, so:

   You’re wearing hobnailed boots and, hurrying down the street to wherever you’re going, you don’t pay attention and kick or step on someone. They go, “ow! That really hurts!” Do you

   a) explain how you’re a really good person and you never do that and why are they picking on you when Annie Wilkes kidnapped a guy and -deliberately cut his foot off with a rusty axe and no anesthetic,” now THAT”s painful

   b) just say, “oh, I’m terribly sorry, do you need help walking over to wherever, should I call a doctor, etc.” and listen to the answer, and if it’s “no,” but they’re still pissed, just say, again, “I’m really sorry, I wasn’t looking where I was going, I’ll be more careful from now on. Take care” and get on with it, feeling like schmo, but realizing you’ll -get over it- at least as much as the injured person.

   ?

8. GallingGalla on June 19th, 2008 9:16 pm permalink

   I just want to second what smadin said. I was raised in a surburban white “liberal” environment, and after all these years, it’s *still* hard for me to see that racism is not an all-or-nothing thing. I’m still fighting the “I can’t be racist cuz I don’t do The Really Bad Things” attitude that my upbringing inculcated. Also not really understanding racist as an adjective vs. as a noun. Also fighting my own defensiveness.

   I’m slowly learning from this blogs and other blogs by POC.

9. Melissa McEwan on June 20th, 2008 12:57 pm permalink

   Great post, Kevin.

   The whole “hipster irony” thing just grates on my last fucking good nerve, too — and I’ll tell you why: I once visited a friend who was housesitting for a couple of professors at the University of Chicago. Now these were professors in the social sciences, and they were a gay couple, one of whom was a POC (though not black), so it’s not like they’d never had any personal experience with bigotry before.

   Their home was beautiful, stunning; an old rehabbed graystone in Chicago, amazingly decorated. Then I walk into the kitchen, and it’s filled — and I mean FILLED — to the fucking brim with mammie kitsch. Mammie salt and pepper shakers, mammie wall hangings, mammie refrigerator magnets, mammie kitchen rings, mammie potholders, mammie spatulas, just everywhere I looked. There was seriously not a square foot of space in that freaking kitchen that didn’t have some sort of mammie figurine, utensil, or cloth in it.

   I was literally struck dumb for a moment as my brain tried to process it, and then I finally managed, “What the fuck is going on here?”

   My friend said, “Oh, they collect that stuff. You know, ironically.”

   But…it was so pervasive! It made me ill to look at it all; it was like stumbling onto the scene of a crime or something. That wasn’t irony.

   I don’t know what it was, but it wasn’t irony.

   I have been deeply suspicious of anyone who owns even a single piece of that shit for “irony” ever since. And I realize it’s quite a statement of my white privilege that it took a shock like that to question that “irony” line in the first place.

10. DaisyDeadhead on June 20th, 2008 11:22 pm permalink

    just what’s wrong with us that we can’t distinguish gradations, and assume that “racism” (for example) is a binary thing, 100% or 0%.

    Years ago, I made a remark at a political (!) meeting about “my own racism” which the black people present all understood fine and responded to what I actually said in context…but whites all got alarmed and later repeated everywhere with incredulity: “Daisy said she was a racist!” (did we go to THE SAME MEETING?!?)…But I was struck by the insertion of -A- (the noun) racist, which I didn’t say. I spoke of “my racism” as my lifelong indoctrination as a white person in this culture, and was referring to the particular TYPE of indoctrination I had received and its influence on my understanding of the events under discussion. This, to me, is a given. To the blacks present at the meeting, it was a given. To most of the other whites, it was incomprehensible: You are either a racist or your aren’t, period.

    My question: Where did either/or thing COME FROM?

    As we used to say, this is low-consciousness stuff, and I wonder, where did the whole concept of socialization go? Or do (even political!) people not subscribe to that concept anymore?

    ((confused))

    And: great post, Kevin

11. belledame222 on June 21st, 2008 6:48 am permalink

    I would really, really like to kick some peoples’ ass until the message sinks in:

    “IRONY” =! “KIDDING ON THE SQUARE.”

    and, the fact that (some) people laugh when South Park or Sarah Silverman do it does not mean that you, too, will be received with the same joyous laughter and accolades.

    a) amazingly enough, not everyone in the world is charmed by this shit, particularly when it’s a bit more personal for them. And, arguing and whining that they should react the way you wanted them to in response: increasingly less charming.

    b) chances are, you aren’t actually that funny.

    c) did I mention the part about how -any- whining once you’re called on your shit immediately torpedoes any last shreds of credibility you had with the whole “ironic distance, yr taking it all too seriously” business? Because, if -they- don’t get to complain, YOU sure as shit don’t.

    d) actually, just fuck off.

12. thebewilderness on June 21st, 2008 8:40 pm permalink

    Gah!
    Perhaps I’m missing something.
    Her racist friends brought her some racist kitsch which she keeps handy for when she’s drunk, and now she put it on the interwebs for anyone to see.
    Right.
    How was she to know that most of that crap disappeard in the ’70’s out of embarassment, because anyone who saw it would know you were a bigoted racist.
    Criminy. When one behaves like a bigot, one ought not be surprised when people think you are a bigot.

13. smadin on June 23rd, 2008 12:14 pm permalink

    Sorry to come back to this so late, but GallingGalla, in case you’re still reading the comments: if you meant you weren’t sure what I was getting at in talking about adjectives vs. nouns (and after all, I was being fairly elliptical), it’s a hypothesis I’ve been developing. I think that saying that so-and-so is “a racist” (or “a sexist” or “a homophobe” or etc. etc. etc.), instead of saying that so-and-so is racist (or sexist or homophobic…) or that something so-and-so said or did is racist, sexist, homophobic, etc., is a symptom of, and probably also a contributing factor to, the idea that racism is an all-or-nothing thing.

    If you’ll pardon the cheesiness of my quoting it, in Neal Stephenson’s Cryptonomicon, Enoch Root explains that he prefers the German term that he translates as “morphine-seeky” to the English word “addict” because (I’m quoting from memory, so this may not be verbatim) “it’s an adjective that modifies Bobby Shaftoe instead of a noun that obliterates him.”

    If “racist” is an adjective, then it’s something a person can be, to varying degrees, among however many other things he or she is. If it’s a noun, then it’s something he or she either is, and is fully, or isn’t at all. And if “a racist” is a bad thing to be, and it’s a noun, then of course we’re going to react angrily and defensively to any suggestion that we’re somewhat racist, because the middle ground’s been erased.

14. Danielle on June 28th, 2008 1:32 am permalink

    Why is it, that in either this or the original post comment thread, is no one pointing out that what we have here are legions of WHITE people throwing their WHITE opinions into an arena where they are discussing how offended BLACK people should be?

    You’re all jumping up Sarah’s asscrack and punishing her for her actions, yet you idly sit by and let countless white people tell you how offended you should be by her! Am I, a black woman, INSANE to see this?! Why is there no ire over the fact that what we have here are several white people appropriating the black experience and turning it into their own cause?

15. Danielle on June 28th, 2008 1:37 am permalink

    Also, are you all as equally offended by black people that collect Mammy kitsch? Do you refer to THEM as hipsters? In my experience, there are legions of black people that are collectors.

    I’m seriously bothered by the reference here that being racist is a “hip trend”, particularly in a society where “hip” cultural appropriation goes completely without protest. I’m more offended that Ilyka felt the need to post about Sarah at all than I am at what Sarah posted.

16. Kevin on June 28th, 2008 2:32 pm permalink

    @Danielle: Please go back and read both this post and Ilyka’s, including the comments before you go making comments about “legions of White people.” You see, many of the comments, mine included, are by people of color. Someone else tried to pull that bullshit and was called on it as well.

    You do know that you’re on a Black person’s blog, right? You just accused me of appropriating my own experience and turning it into “their own cause”?

    Bwahahahahahaha!

    Who said anything about collecting? Well, actually Harriet’s Daughter, another BLACK woman, brought it up in her post, and it’s been pretty much agreed that the ownership of such items in itself is not the problem. It’s how you present said ownership that is the problem. This has nothing to do with collecting and everything to do with playing into hurtful stereotypes for shits and giggles. No one said anything about racism being a “hip trend,” either. This is Racism 101 stuff and you’re not on a Racism 101 blog, so I suggest you take this outrage of yours elsewhere because I’m not buying it for a minute.

    And really? You’re more offended by Ilyka? I’m not sure what to make of that.

17. Danielle on June 28th, 2008 9:12 pm permalink

    I didn’t say that YOU were appropriating the experience, but that Ilyka was appropriating the black experience. You would do well to take your own advice and read my comments again.

    It’s clear to me that you and the rest of the commenters are looking for a straw man, and you’ve found it in Sarah. No one in these comment threads is being rational about accepting Sarah’s apology - you’re using it to continue your chorus of “But we’re RIGHT! and you’re WRONG!” How mature is it to look an apology in the eye and still feel the need to pick at the issue like a dog with a bone? Fuck, let it go.

    I realize that these are personal blogs and neither of you approaches these racial matters with the journalistic style and integrity of, say, Racialicious. But you only succeed in making yourselves look like heathens with your persistant shredding of this girl. She was WRONG - she admitted FAULT - be the bigger person and let it die. Do you really think Sarah will walk away from this not thinking in the future about her actions? Be glad that, despite the cruelty of your methods, you succeeded in bringing attention to the glaring issues of race relations in this country today to one more naive white person.

    Stop talking just to hear yourselves talk.

    And again - I find it comical and offensive that you are all so comfortable allowing a white woman to come to the defense of black people everywhere, jumping “off her pedestal” to save little old us. Oh Ilyka, what would we DO without you?

18. Kevin on June 28th, 2008 11:33 pm permalink

    @Danielle: “I didn’t say that YOU were appropriating the experience, but that Ilyka was appropriating the black experience. You would do well to take your own advice and read my comments again.”

    Ok, that wasn’t entirely clear to me, but I’m willing to believe that’s what you meant.

    Moving on.

    Um, strawman for what? The whole point is that these types of “jokes” are not funny. Really, that’s it. I have no interest in “shredding” Sarah or anyone else for that matter. And please. Spare me this “poor Sarah” bullshit. You wanna know about cruelty, go read Harriet’s Daughter.

    It’s funny that you mention Racialicious, because I wrote about something similar there. I place the apologetics for these Emancipita things in the same category as the apologetics for people like Sarah Silverman. My position is consistent. Even when I’m writing at places with “journalistic style and integrity.”

19. Kevin on June 29th, 2008 12:10 am permalink

    @Danielle: Oh, and as for Ilyka jumping off her pedestal and coming to the defense of Black people everywhere? I’m not sure where that’s coming from. Are White folks not allowed to be offended by harmful racial stereotypes anymore? Are critiques of the use of racial stereotypes only valid when they come from people of color?

    I realize that my style is snarky, and yes I can be cruel at times. I fully admit that. But really, I’m trying to get at why you are so upset here. I go out of my way to say “look folks, I’m not saying that Sarah is a capital-R racist.” I’m just saying that her Mammy thing is offensive and the folks trying to excuse it are offensive to me. I DON”T think Sarah is a capital-
    R racist! I’m quite sure that were we to meet, I’d get along with her. Hell, we probably like the same damn hipster indie-rock bands. Trust me. I’m a Black punk rocker (ok, former punk rocker. I’m way too old to be a punk anymore). I’ve been around the serious neo-nazi skinheads. I know who my enemies are. They tend to have swastika tattoos. I’ve always criticized shit that I find racially insensitive, even when it comes from my allies. Spend some time looking around this blog. I’m also pro-Womanist/Feminist. You think I haven’t had women call me out on sexist shit that I’ve said and done? You’d be wrong if you did, ’cause I’ve done and said some stupid ass sexist shit in my day, and folks (women and men) were right to call me on it. Does it hurt to hear that? Yes. But I needed to hear it and I’d like to think that I’m a better person for hearing it.

    So really? How does any of this translate into me or anyone else trying to crucify her?

20. Danielle on June 29th, 2008 10:59 am permalink

    The whole point is that these types of “jokes” are not funny.

    Agreed.

    But my point is that why are these jokes “passable” (if not funny) when a black person references them, but horrifying when a white person does? Why is there not a general “we find this horrifying” standard? I feel the same about using the N word - I fucking hate it when I hear white people using it, but I hate it MORE when I hear black people using it. Why would you reclaim such a hateful term, no matter WHAT your skin color?

    go read Harriet’s Daughter.

    I have. A lot of people in Ilyka’s comment thread find her profound, but she isn’t saying anything I haven’t already heard in my first year Women’s Studies or African-American studies classes.

    I wrote about something similar there
    Can you link to it?

    Oh, and as for Ilyka jumping off her pedestal and coming to the defense of Black people everywhere? I’m not sure where that’s coming from. Are White folks not allowed to be offended by harmful racial stereotypes anymore? Are critiques of the use of racial stereotypes only valid when they come from people of color?

    My point is this: Both Sarah and Ilyka are appropriating the black experience for different reasons, with different outcomes. Why is more acceptable for one, but not the other? Sarah feels that having a Mammy thimble is comical and not offensive. In that way, she’s saying that the black experience as it applies to early century racism is something she feels comfortable poking fun at, or at least adapting into a facet of her humor. So IN THAT WAY, she’s taking on aspects of the black experience - comfort or discomfort with racist figures - and making it her own.

    Ilyka feels the need to deflect her personal position of white privilege, spending her time not only pointing out injustice, but SPEAKING FROM A PLACE OF BLACK EXPERIENCE THAT SHE DOESN’T HAVE. In this way, she’s appropriating the black experience just as much as Sarah. Ilyka feels comfortable speaking from her white privileged background (and it is my contention that if you grow up white in America, no matter what your financial background is you are privileged) about the pressing black issues. In my eyes, she’s appropriating the black experience just as much as Sarah.

    I’ve poked around your site. We have a TON of things in common, as I, too, am a womanist, feminist, punk (though I don’t tend to identify as such any longer). I’d even link you to my blog if I didn’t feel like you’d rip my fucking face off in the comments. I think that we just disagree about the principles of this situation, rather than the situation itself.

21. Kevin on June 29th, 2008 1:47 pm permalink

    @Danielle: But my point is that why are these jokes “passable” (if not funny) when a black person references them, but horrifying when a white person does?

    Well, I think that the context of such jokes matters, such that a White person can make such a joke and it would “pass” (even be funny) and Black folks can fail at it as well. A perfect example: Black men putting on “fat suits” and pretending to be the stereotypical large, overbearing Black woman. FAIL.

    Can you link to it?

    Click on “Sarah Silverman.” That’s the link to the post.

    A lot of people in Ilyka’s comment thread find her profound, but she isn’t saying anything I haven’t already heard in my first year Women’s Studies or African-American studies classes.

    Fair enough. But you have to agree that some people do need to hear what she’s saying, even if it’s 101 stuff to you and I.

    Slightly, but not really off topic: I’ve had a post swirling around in my head on the very issues that you are raising here with regards to Tim Wise (who I link to in the post). I started thinking about it after reading a post at Jack and Jill Politics and the subsequent comments thread praising Tim Wise. Us Black folks love us some Tim Wise. But why? It’s not like he’s saying anything that a zillion other Black folks haven’t been saying forever. And just to flip the script and make it a little more complicated, when I write about womanist/feminist issues, or LGBT issues, am I speaking from a place of experience that I don’t have? Where do we draw the line between being good allies and appropriation, I guess is what I’m wondering here? I don’t have the answer, but your comments are well taken, for what it’s worth. I, personally, don’t think that Ilyka (or Tim Wise for that matter) is “speaking from a place of Black experience,” but you’ve given me something to think about.

    And really, Danielle. YOU”RE NOT THE ENEMY! Sorry for yelling, but it’s beyond me why you think I would “rip [your] fucking face off in the comments,” especially if we have a ton of things in common. My archives are deceptive. I’ve been blogging for quite a long time now. I had a bad experience with a database migration and had to delete three years of blogging. I’ve had many, many people come here that deserved to get their faces ripped off. You most certainly are not one of them. I’m at the point now where if I thought you were here to cause trouble or were arguing in bad faith, I would have simply told you to stfu and blocked your comments. Yes, I can be harsh at times. I’ve been in a few too many blog wars over the years; but really, we slightly disagree about one damn thing and you’ve got me ripping your face off? Well, for what it’s worth, you’re welcome here. Please agree or disagree with me in comments as much as you want. I’d rather have someone disagree with me, and give me something to think about than some of the hateful shit that’s been posted on these very pages.

22. First, Tangents « Off Our Pedestals on July 11th, 2008 6:30 am permalink

    [...] because Our Intentions are so good.” I am thinking about this because I’d like to tell Danielle (see comments) that she is welcome to tell me directly when she feels I have appropriated what’s not mine, [...]

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